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| Vegito Blue and Merged Zamasu | |||
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 12 2017, 10:34 PM (9,302 Views) | |||
| + Solid Snake | Jan 12 2017, 10:34 PM Post #1 | ||
滅Are you frightened?
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This misconception of Merged Zamasu being superior throughout the whole fight has became evidently crazy. So here present the evidence for whomever you believe is superior. For me I have Vegito Blue superior, and here's my evidence.
Agree and why? Disagree and why? |
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 Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| + Pyrus | Jan 12 2017, 11:07 PM Post #2 | ||
 
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Just from memory (I'll rewatch the fight tonight), I figured Vegetto to be the one at a slight disadvantage, if someone had to be advantaged. | ||
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| Akatsuki Kill3r | Jan 12 2017, 11:28 PM Post #3 | ||
 
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Vegitos only disadvantage was his time limit. He was godstomping Zamasu regardless of how powerful he said to be. Even his immortality was useless as Vegito could have easily held him off in time for a jar to be set for a Mafuba. | ||
 -Pray to your God for freedom. Thou must cleave with the sword and soak in lukewarm blood for mine-
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| EMIYA | Jan 12 2017, 11:41 PM Post #4 | ||
"I am the bone of my sword."
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I think I'll just break the fight down as best as I can. We'll start with after Vegeta has landed the first punch on Zamasu when he's in the middle of his speech. I feel the initial energy blast from Zamasu is just a point that Zamasu has underestimated his opponent initially and Vegetto got a quick punch on an unsuspecting Zamasu. So right now, they're both ready for action. - Zamasu throws a punch, letting loose a shockwave. Vegetto is clearly shocked and jumps out of the way where we see a huge explosion. Notes: Here we have Vegetto dodging the first attack, however his expressions easily tells us that this was an attack he did not want to take. No longer does he have the arrogant grin on his face (and in fact until he stabs him with his Spirit Sword, loses that expression entirely. He's pretty much ready to fight and knows he can't screw around with this guy. - Zamasu charges in and slams into Vegetto, sending them throughout the city. Notes: A clear advantage to Zamasu on this one. He was tired of Vegetto looking down a god and he decided to deck him one. - At an unseen point, Vegetto breaks from Zamasu and charges again where they both have a quick clash together. Vegetto then lands a quick kick against Zamasu's face. Zamasu tries to retaliate with an uppercut but Vegetto dodges. However Zamasu then lands a swift kick on Vegetto and sends him flying. He tries to do another shock wave but Vegetto avoids it. Notes: So a more or less even battle here. Whether it means anything or if he just never got the chance, you may notice that Zamasu is more willing to take a hit...which considering his regeneration, understandable. But Vegetto is dodging a lot of attacks and not even really guarding for that matter. He seems more keen on wanting to get quick jabs here and there while trying to avoid as much of a direct confrontation with Zamasu's attacks as he can. - So from the same point, Vegetto flies back and in and starts a flurry of kicks which Zamasu blocks. Vegetto lands another kick from behind then slams Zamasu into the ground. Notes: An advantage to Vegetto on this one. - Zamasu blasts Vegetto, at this point the guy goes flying. He manages to get his balance again and both he and Zamasu charge at each other. Their fists colliding with both screaming like male banshees who have had their dicks cut off. Notes: An initial advantage to zamasu (the blast) with an equal struggle during the first power punch. -Zamasu comes in, I didn't see Vegetto really lose balance. I just see Zamasu taking the initiative and storming in. He lands a pretty swift gut punch against Vegetto, even drawing blood, then knocks him into the air with another uppercut. Notes; A very clear advantage on Zamasu here. He pretty much took control here and put Vegetto on his a*** and was ready to finish the deed. He drew blood, made Vegetto give a look of sheer shock and pain. It's at this point where Zamasu is really showing the slight edge now. None of Vegetto's attacks at this point have made Zamasu barf up blood and just get into a position where he seems down for the count. - So Zamasu prepares to stab Vegetto but Vegetto retaliates with his longer Spirit Sword. At this point it's made aware of that Zamasu is no longer immortal, he just has really good regeneration and stuff. He can now be killed and hurt like anything else. Zamasu at first is shocked but then he gains his composure, tells Vegetto this is what he wanted all the time (which I think is BS but whatever) and then breaks the Spirit Sword before getting large. Notes: A technical advantage to Vegetto for getting the attack off but Zamasu's lack of concern really doesn't put it in much light. it's obvious that this attack, while definitely catching Zamasu off guard, didn't really mean much to him and when he easily breaks the blade, it's easy to see why. --- --- So now we get into what some may consider to be the 2nd half of the fight. Kaioshin at this point makes the notion that Zamasu is breaking apart and not healing. I'm just going to call BS on that, Zamasu before and after was healing fine. If he was referring to his mutated form, Gowasu states that this is because of Zamasu's conflicting thoughts. Anyways. -We get another clash similar to the fist punch from before. Both of them screaming like maniacs. The only real difference is that Vegetto is still very serious in his expression but Zamasu feels the needs to put a huge evil smile on him. - We cut to the next scene later where Vegetto is pushing Zamasu back, sending in a flurry of punches as Zamasu is force to block. He tries to retaliate with a blade but Vegetto dodges, lands another combo and hits him into a building. Notes: An advantage to Vegetto here. His lines make it appear that Zamasu has become too slow to handle Vegetto's speed. He's being pressured by the speed and attacks and is unable to get a hold of himself. - Vegetto prepares a Final Kamehameha, saying that "this will finish it." we also learn later that Vegetto put all his energy into this attack as well. He fires it off and it hits Zamasu. A few seconds later, Zamasu flies out into the air calling himself a god. Vegetto, with an irked expression, uses IT and appears above Zamasu, lands one more punch and then defuses in the middle of it. Notes: So now we are here. I'm just going to keep saying it. Vegetto threw his strongest energy blast, his full power and Zamasu survived it. He came out fully healed. if it was regeneration than it's only another testament to how good his regeneration is and really how good his endurance is. It's not like you need to Majin Boo him and erase every physical particle, doing enough physical damage like Trunks did when he split him should be enough. So it really is a testament to Zamasu when he takes this hit directly and come out as fine as he did. And after that, the punch to me just feels like a last bit desperation on Vegetto's part. Not even last bit, Vegetto had no idea he defused. But his Final Kamehameha failed and so he just continues to attack. Even his expression when using IT is one of anger and frustration. He basically just wants to finish Zamasu and is doing whatever he can now to get the job done. It's going to be really hard for me to imagine that Vegetto's final punch was going to pack more power than his Final Kamehameha or get the job done better. --- --- Overall Zamasu and Vegetto start more or less on equal grounds during the first part of the fight but I definitely feel that Zamasu starts getting more of an edge during the fight. Like I said, Zamasu landed some extremely heavy blows on Vegetto (hence why he probably dodged so much in the first place) even seemingly putting him down for the count. Vegetto had to rely on some sneak attacks and thanks to Zamasu regeneration, he's able to truck through Vegetto's attacks while Vegetto is forced to keep his wounds and move on. During the second half, Monster Zamasu has become slow enough that Vegetto's speed and pressure can keep him at bay. He's unable to get a hit off and Vegetto is more easily able to retaliate against Zamasu. His style has been like this even before Zamasu grew larger. Vegetto was more of a quick fighter, landing quick blows while Zamasu was more of a heavy hitter and now Vegetto's style is better fit against this kind of opponent. Unfortunately if Zamasu was already on Vegetto's level before, he's going to be even stronger now. His power and endurance+regeneration has made it that Vegetto's finding it really had to put Zamasu down. It's again a huge testament to Zamasu when he survives the Final Kamehameha and keeps going. It says to me that while Vegetto can pressure Zamasu and keep him at bay, he lacks the firepower and strength to get the job done completely. Zamasu is basically a flying brick wall here. Extremely slow but extremely tough. there's my big post. Edited by EMIYA, Jan 12 2017, 11:44 PM.
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| SuperSaiyanGodGogeta | Jan 12 2017, 11:49 PM Post #5 | ||
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The Final Kamehameha that Vegito said would end it was tanked. The punch that Vegito said would end it did nothing. Not sure how anyone is claiming that he was going to finish the fight with something else after using up all his ki. The punch was just a last ditch effort since the move that had all of his ki did nothing. Power wise Power stressed Merged Zamasu>>>Light of Justice Merged Zamasu>=Vegito Blue>>>>>>>>>>>Merged Zamasu. Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Jan 12 2017, 11:50 PM.
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| SSB Vegito | Jan 12 2017, 11:55 PM Post #6 | ||
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Vegito is so incredibly superior, the anime fight was simply misinterpreted (by the animators and the viewers) . Wait until the manga comes with its more coherent version and see for yourselves (They go by the same outlines). Quote me, I'll eat my words if I'm wrong , but I guarantee you that I'm spot on |
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| ryan1227 | Jan 13 2017, 12:00 AM Post #7 | ||
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Vegetto's stronger of course, Blue Goku alone managed to beat him in a beam struggle. All jokes aside, Zamasu shrugging off the Final Kamehameha pretty much seals it for me. Zamasu is superior, at least while he is bulked up. |
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| + Saiyan Paladin | Jan 13 2017, 12:38 AM Post #8 | ||
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Bulky Zamasu is definitely Blue Vegetto's superior. Vegetto seemed like he might have had a very small advantage at first, but the Final Kamehameha being tanked seals the deal on Zamasu's superiority for me. | ||
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| + Solid Snake | Jan 13 2017, 12:54 AM Post #9 | ||
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滅Are you frightened?
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So no one think the last punch wouldn't amount to anything had Vegito not split? | ||
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Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| EMIYA | Jan 13 2017, 01:21 AM Post #10 | ||
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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For m, it would have been nothing more than whatever else Vegetto threw out. We know by later statements that Vegetto wanted to finish things off with the Final Kamehameha and that's why he put all his energy into it. It's why Vegetto defuses shortly after and why Goku and Vegeta can't transform. He intended this attack to be the main, big hitter it simply could not get through Zamasu's defenses, be it endurance and/or regeneration. Not enough to do lasting damage. The punch afterwards doesn't even feel like it should amount to what is forcing a huge energy wave towards your opponent. It's not even that special to be honest. It just comes off as a simple punch that Vegetto's putting some energy into. |
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| * Yu Narukami | Jan 13 2017, 01:24 AM Post #11 | ||
Izanagi!
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Either Final Kamehameha was Vegetto's trump card or he's unbelievably idiotic. Let's assume that this punch was actually his ultimate technique. Why would he put all of his Ki into his second-strongest move? Any competent fighter would use the Final Kamehameha, but keep enough Ki to ensure that he'd be able to use his strongest technique in the case of it not working. |
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| EMIYA | Jan 13 2017, 01:27 AM Post #12 | ||
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Also for people saying that Vegetto was "far superior" and "whooping a***" Did you honestly watch this fight? Seriously I can interpret "Perfect Cell vs SSj2 Kid Gohan" as Cell being far superior, but the moment you post an image of Gohan kicking Cell so hard in the head he barfs up a person while previously getting his full powered Kamehameha blown back into his face, my argument kind of falls flat. |
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| Tinny | Jan 13 2017, 01:33 AM Post #13 | ||
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Alright then, I'll provide my own evidence, and try to keep it concise. So the match begins, Vegetto turns blue immediately, it's safe to say base isn't enough. Then Zamasu fires a blast at him, telling him to not assume that ssjgssj/ssjb will let him stand up to a god. He fires a ki blast at Vegetto which Vegetto blocks handily. This can favour Vegetto, but keep in mind Zamasu during this point in the arc doesn't seem to be able to sense energy for some reason (as Sam has provided evidence for). I believe that Zamasu was underestimating Vegetto here, in any case, it's safe to assume at minimum, Vegetto is stronger than Goku. Zamasu monologues for a bit, and was evidently lost in his own world as Vegetto points out he was "open." This could constitute a sneak attack potentially, with the understanding that a namek laser beam could kill the fourth or fifth most powerful person in the universe, base form or ssjb form, but for now I'll ignore that. In any case, Zamasu still gets up, now a bit pissed. He punches at Vegetto, to which Vegetto has a startled, perhaps even scared expression before dodging the shockwaves. For how insane this is, keep in mind that this suggests a power imbalance akin to Goku vs Chi-Chi on it's own, considering that's how Goku defeated Chi-Chi. It's closer than that considering they can actually punch each other, but in any case, this just suggests Zamasu has allot of power, the part that confirms it for me is Vegetto's reaction. Vegetto is easily one of the most confident characters in Dragon Ball. He nearly s*** himself in response and flew or jumped out of the way. At this point, it seems Zamasu it outpitting more power, considering Zamasu was both punched and kicked a fair difference while off guard, while Vegetto had to dodge the purple arm air wave. At this point Zamasu charges in and punches Vegetto, he blocks but is still pushed through a good portion of the city before he flies away. Also Vegetto had a bit of a yelp or grunt or something, suggesting that there was effort on Vegetto's part just to block, even though he's getting pushed back this much. Anyways, to continue, Vegetto gets away and engages Zamasu on his own terms. a clash happens. Vegetto kicks Zamasu square in the chin, Zamasu doesn't move much, and attempts to uppercut in retaliation but misses. Immediately after that he turns and kicks Vegetto with is right leg in the stomach, sending him away fair enough for him to use the air wave technique again, which Vegetto then dodges. The kick from Zamasu does knock him farther away, which is to say it knocks Vegetto away at all compared to Zamasu maintaining his position in the air. Vegetto once again counter attacks after dodging the air wave with a kick, which Zamasu blocks with one arm, clearly with effort however judging from his expression. Vegetto then flies away and back (a hit and run tactic, something often used when you can't afford a straight up engagement), and with a flurry of kicks to his front attempts to attack again. Zamasu blocks thses kicks, but lo and behold, Vegetto is not a stupid brick, and instead of taking him on directly, uses those kicks as a distraction for him to kick the back of Zamasu's neck, this suprises Zamasu again and Vegetto just face plants him into the ground. Despite Vegetto having the advantage here, I'd say this is indicative of Vegetto's weakness in this fight, which is to say brute power and strength, and his advantage here, which is to say skill and techniques (this becomes literal later).Despite not being as powerful as Zamasu (if evidence here means anything) he's still able to keep up and even pull ahead at many times through the use of misdirection, hit and run, and attacking Zamasu's weak points, rather than Zamasu who just kind of plows through Vegetto's defence using blunt force and an unwillingness to give up against a mortal. Vegetto is a scalpel, Zamasu is a hammer. Anyways, after Vegetto forces Zamasu into a crater, he mocks Zamasu, asking him if that's all the power a god has, while one could use that to say he's stronger, and indeed right now Vegetto is holding Zamasu's arm still there and leaving him with little room to move, it is clear he has to use his intellect to get Zamasu into such a vulnerable position in the first place, more over, it's clear that amount of power, even if more powerful, isn't enough to overtake Vegetto's skill. Even if Vegetto is weaker, I can still see him saying this and meaning it, it doesn't matter if Zamasu is only a bit stronger here, if Vegetto can maneuver around that with his skill. Zamasu then tells him to not be pretentious and charges up an energy attack in his eye. Vegetto makes an "oh s***!" face and tries to retreat, only to blown away anyways. He manages to land on his feet, but the fact still remains that Vegetto had to vacate the immediate area and even had that startled expression once Zamasu was ready to fire it. It's clear this attack is dangerous enough to Vegetto that he's unwilling to maintain his restraining hold on Zamasu and instead tries to retreat. Vegetto even cries out in pain. They then clash fists, now at this point it seems they're equal for a bit, but Zamasu forces Vegetto's fist down before uppercutting him, rather casually actually. Vegetto even has spit or blood falling out of his mouth, and he cries out in pain once again, is left face down in the ground, and doesn't make a move. Considering how the beginning of the fight billed Zamasu as powerful (that air wave Vegetto was outright startled at and leaped to dodge), I think it's safe to say there a good reason he's not moving there, and it's not simply setting up the next attack. It's very likely here that he couldn't get up quickly enough to simply get back to fighting Zamasu, and so had to use another trick, lulling Zamasu into a false sense of security before stabbing him. Zamasu forms a short ki blade and walks over to execute him. Vegetto instead counters with is own ki blade, a longer one, surprising Zamasu with a crouching stab in his chest. Zamasu is clearly suprised, and gasps out a bit. Vegetto even remarks that he's in pain even though he's supposed to be immortal. After this Zamasu collects himself and starts monologuing, they talk back and forth and Vegetto reveals that Zamasu is now part mortal, because of Son Goku's body. Zamasu surprisingly takes this well, and specifies that this is the point of that. He talks a bit about his motivations. Keep in mind that this guy still has that ki blade stuck in him. Anyways, Zamasu powers up, and outright disintegrates Vegetto's ki blade before flying up and continuing to monologue. Vegetto remarks that Zamasu always has to have the last word, a sentiment I can agree with at times, though not in regards to Zamasu. At this point, Zamasu powers up and grows larger. The start their fight again, it's unclear who's winning since they're not showing the fight but cutting to the Kais talking about Zamasu's insanity, but they're presumably clashing. At this point we just cut entirely to Trunks, we can safely skip this since it has nothing to do with the fight at all, aside from Trunk's decision to join in. Anyways, we finally cut back to Vegetto and Zamasu, where Vegetto is pushing Zamasu back, Vegetto outright credits his speed, and to his credit, I do think Vegetto has had the advantage in speed through out this fight. Zamasu then tries to counter attack but misses, and Vegetto kicks Zamasu into the air, before punching him, and then kicking him into a wall, effectively cornering him. Now while many like to say Vegetto is more powerful here, I find it odd that Vegetto said speed, and not power or strength, and thus I doubt Vegetto was more powerful or stronger there, but simply that much faster, as shown when Zamasu tries to counter attack. This is the big moment, Vegetto uses the finak kamehameha, which pretty much uses all of his energy and is the reason Goku and Vegeta cannot go ssjb/ssjgssj later on. Vegetto also states that this attack will end it, I therefore believe that Vegetto was planning to end the fight right there, and put all his power and strength into a combination of Vegeta and Goku's most powerful attacks, the final flash and kamehameha, Final Kamehameha. I would like to thank Zoom for bringing this to my attention (he posted a gif showing it), but the fkhh clearly hits Zamasu head on. It creates a large explosion, and out of the smoke... Pops Zamasu. Arms out, telling Vegetto "Observe! This is a god!" At this point I want to point out the music at this point has changed from the epic tune to a much more suspenseful one at this point, and Vegetto seems frustrated. It seems clear to me that Vegetto planned to end it there... And failed. Miserably. He then IT's up there, tells Zamasu to say good bye, and punches him in the face, leaving Zamasu's face steaming before defusing. The suspenseful music is still playing, so I don't think this was meant to be a surprise that Vegetto lost there, the way he lost was certainly surprising, but the way the scene was building up, it's clear Vegetto had lost and was merely delaying the inevitable. Notably the music finally ends with the diffusion, at which point it goes silent in terms of music. Zamasu then punches the diffused saiyans with an evil smile, then gets ready to kill them, no longer with the relative civility, but with a mad savagery, at this point he wants them gone, and they have pissed them off, an attitude that continues onto the Trunks fight. Vegetto is weaker, but faster, more skilled, and has better techniques, unfortunately for him, Zamasu is stronger, has more powerful ki blasts, more durability, has regeneration, used more ranged attacks that needed to be dodged, and is simply unwilling to die, and as the fight goes on the advantages of both get only more extreme, but where as Vegetto gains a somewhat larger speed advantage, Zamasu gets and obscene durability advantage (likely strength as well). Zamasu wins, and would have won even without the time limit, it was only a matter of time. At the end of the fight, even before the time limit came into play, Vegetto was getting desperate, or at minimum, we're supposed to get scared and feel desperation for a victory due to that music playing at the end and Zamasu going all "Observe! This is a god!" I said I'd try to keep it short, I didn't say I'd succeed 
I certainly didn't, for one it didn't amount to anything, and for another the music was telling me to get scared. Vegetto's loss was hardly meant to be a surprise, but a sad confirmation. It was clear what the scene was meant to tell me. It was meant to tell me that Trunks was well and truly out of options. It didn't matter who Trunks got, the gods were unwilling to help, and the most powerful person they had in their entire match, even if they managed to get away another day, lost. It didn't matter where they went, it didn't matter where they fled to. As Zamasu said "So, where will you go for help next? The past? The Future? And thus you continue to rebel against the weakness of the gods! All because of your mortal weakness!" Trunks can't fight Zamasu alone, but now he has no choice but to fight Zamasu alone, and if Vegetto couldn't defeat Zamasu, what hope does Trunks have? It's actually a really good set up for what Trunks does upon these repeated viewings. You just kind of have to shift to a Magical Girl mind set instead of a Dragon Ball mindset for it to work. There's no one person who can defeat Zamasu, Zamasu was the single most powerful person in the entire universe at this point, undisputed god of the universe at this point. No one can defeat him alone, but the power of everyone's feelings, hopes, and dreams... I'm not kidding, if some kind of trinket appeared in everyone's hand and someone told them to start telling Trunks to never give up this would be right out of a pretty cure movie. They even have the kids saying "Gambare!" Spoiler: click to toggle
Edited by Tinny, Jan 13 2017, 02:16 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Jan 13 2017, 02:01 AM Post #14 | ||
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Just in case anyone needed a refresher.^ My breakdown watching it After watching the fight again, I would still give the advantage to Zamasu. They were definitely close in power. There's no denying that unless you're legally blind. They each managed to land some good hits – Zamasu's blocked punch that sent Vegetto through several buildings and Vegetto dragging Zamasu to the ground by the arm particularly stood out to me. However, what I thought for the most part was that Vegetto was overall faster and more skillful (Vegetto lands combos while Zamasu does not, Vegetto playing possum), while Zamasu had the edge in power (the shockwave of his initial punch, a blocked punch with a ton of force behind it, the exploding eye beam, outright shattering Vegetto's ki sword). The additions of Zamasu apparently tanking the Final Kamehameha and receiving little – if any – damage from the On the other hand, why would Vegetto believe his Final Kamehameha to be sufficient in destroying Zamasu if in fact it was able to be tanked? He looked frustrated, annoyed even, that Zamasu survived, but not shocked. He then followed up with a ki-charged punch with the implication of it being another fatal attack, but that leads to wondering how much power he put into the Final Kamehameha compared to the punch, and that just leads to a debate on his character/motives. tl;dr — This is a somewhat murky fight and I have no problem with either side assuming they're correct. My only issue is claiming Vegetto was toying with Zamasu, which comes off as asinine when looking at his facial expressions throughout the fight (for example, when their punches collide) and his overall demeanor. Edited by Pyrus, Jan 13 2017, 02:07 AM.
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| EMIYA | Jan 13 2017, 02:48 AM Post #15 | ||
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Apparently this is the version of the fight some people are watching. 
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